Attendees
Ward: Can wiki rely on evergreen chrome as a lasting development environment? I think not.
We'll video chat about this and related dev/user issues starting in 15 min. zoom 
# Discussion
Eric spoke about Polymer and the vision of decoupling Frameworks from standard JS/HTML. This vision still feels like trying to decouple from Rails.
Nick chipped in React's Redux can still be terrible even though you can queue up small changes and has a notion of message passing (good for our time building distributed systems).
Eric and Ward spoke about why automation makes things harder. DevOps vs a series of small steps.
Ward, Agile is really a set of small processes that at scale becomes a complex system. Requiring more engineering experts with specialized skills (may be why Amazon still runs the 2 pizza sized teams).
Eric after you've removed all the SPOF's through engineering automation, the failure move to combinational points of failure.
David Ing added better to have a safe fail [than an automated one...]
David Bovill main Wiki practitioner and Wiki community evangelist does not recognise either automation camp. [he prefers smaller changes to make Wiki user experience boarder]
Eric and DavidIng feel better to think of complex systems as streams with users swimming in them (like the Normandy landing].
DavidBov, how do we form a constructive dialog between disparate communities (designers, coders, marketeers, engineers) through expressive tools. Collaborative writing in Wiki. Eric within distributed system of experts practitioners have different perspectives that they are familiar with. Graphs, visualization, programming languages, video editing. That we can't find a joint cognitive template language.
Perry added he is autistic which can make collaboration hard and reinforces the lone programmer.
# Theme
Clive's reprise - in many ways Wiki is a network of feedback loops. Facebook amps up effects with social feedback to generate ad-tech profits. Federated wiki appears to do the opposite, yet also allows communities to explore and build their own feedback loops through content, adding the feedback loops is easier with a github familiar pattern recognition. page 
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# Chat
From duke to Everyone: (10:14 AM) inversion of control a framework calls you you call a library From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:18 AM) “In soviet russia …" From ChrisGebhardt to Everyone: (10:18 AM) Lol.. I was just typing that From duke to Everyone: (10:20 AM) http://th.ai/in-soviet-russia From duke to Everyone: (10:25 AM) +1 team human From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:25 AM) machines speak code , humans speak words From duke to Everyone: (10:27 AM) velocity of story completion work as imagined vs work as done From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:28 AM) I am a practicing procastinator - I wait 6 years to se what works From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:30 AM) my take is that NO-ONE understands devops From Nick Niemeir to Everyone: (10:33 AM) David, you're echoing back some From duke to Everyone: (10:34 AM) automation make things easier/harder? From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:35 AM) Things not automatically fix are trickier? fixed ? From Nick Niemeir to Everyone: (10:36 AM) I have to bail in 10mins for lunch plans. From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:37 AM) automation makes it possible to do things you want, without understanding the how of it all From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:38 AM) .. until it breaks From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:39 AM) then you find omething that still works From duke to Everyone: (10:39 AM) deeper deeper probs requiring rarer rarer technical experts From David Bovill to Everyone: (10:39 AM) I’ve no interest in automating anything. Automation is evil as far as I’m concerned. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:40 AM) Micromanagement hells? From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:40 AM) the danger is that some things become automated in doing what nobody wants From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:40 AM) oh yeah Evolve evolvability! i’m trying to figure that out.. need to automate else I die before I finsh From David Bovill to Everyone: (10:42 AM) For me it’s about expressivity Augmented expressivity From duke to Everyone: (10:42 AM) fail safe v safe fail resilience/engineering v resilience/ecological From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:44 AM) neet Neat even From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:44 AM) Complexity lives in the automation of things we find burdensome and in a mysterious context we do not relate to. we live in a simpler world orepresenting knowleddge using word. From Nick Niemeir to Everyone: (10:45 AM) This is a super interesting discussion folks, sorry to miss the rest of it, but I've gotta go. From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (10:45 AM) See ya nic. nick From Paul to Everyone: (10:49 AM) https://wiki.dbbs.co/livable-code.html From duke to Everyone: (10:51 AM) stream/ecosystem v building/architect dynamic feedback loops From Paul to Everyone: (10:53 AM) https://gotocon.com/dl/goto-cph-2015/slides/JonasBonr_WithoutResilienceNothingElseMatters.pdf From dnoyes to Everyone: (10:55 AM) humans in a stream are affected by --their surronundings - their predicaments -- their contemporaries and their perceived futures From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:55 AM) i’ve been trying to think in terms of evolutionary-developmental trajectories From daviding to Everyone: (10:55 AM) Also, the stream has its own eddies, beyond the control of human beings. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:56 AM) .. and more than that From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:57 AM) Need pipe organ From daviding to Everyone: (10:58 AM) Might have a problem lifting that pipe organ. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (10:59 AM) in one game playing the keyboard seems a lot like improvising on a pipe organ real-time But I’m currently daydreaming about using various musical instruments to facilitate my interaction with code, proofs, and other mathematical objects From duke to Everyone: (11:02 AM) every pov reveals some truth and occludes others From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:03 AM) a key technology I need is to visualize and interact with these (huge) objects From daviding to Everyone: (11:03 AM) In the interest of time, we might start a round with people who haven’t spoken today. (My clock says 2:03). From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:03 AM) yes.. so need more than one pov From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (11:04 AM) And navigate, discuss, compare the many points of view too. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:05 AM) I’m here because the topic was evergreen, which horrifies me more than what firefox did to me From daviding to Everyone: (11:06 AM) @fortyfoxes is speaking to the circle I go through, it seems every year. Federated wiki, then Livecode, then Python, the node.js … and I end up back on Federated Wiki. From dnoyes to Everyone: (11:07 AM) one might talk back and forth by creating a page for that purpose like" david.talkingto.ward" From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:07 AM) oops Didn’t see that nah From dnoyes to Everyone: (11:08 AM) the page used as a channel of communication From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (11:08 AM) I’ve been mentioning joint-cognitive systems. This is the academic source of that: https://www.crcpress.com/Joint-Cognitive-Systems-Foundations-of-Cognitive-Systems-Engineering/Hollnagel-Woods/p/book/9780849328213 From Me to Everyone: (11:10 AM) Took notes (and edited discussion) http://clive.tries.fed.wiki/view/wiki-devuser-video-chat-feb-6 From daviding to Everyone: (11:10 AM) I think on a previous week, we had a discussion about whether devops complicates things, or helps … but it depends on scale. From David Bovill to Everyone: (11:11 AM) Thanks Clive From Ryan Bennett to Everyone: (11:13 AM) switching to phone, still listening but have to drive to the office From Me to Everyone: (11:13 AM) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory#/media/File:Feedback_loop_with_descriptions.svg From duke to Everyone: (11:16 AM) +1 yes faster access to live stream of mind From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:17 AM) many people despise and want to declare its premature death, but I use rss You guys know about indyweb and microxxx’s From dnoyes to Everyone: (11:20 AM) topical.thursdays From daviding to Everyone: (11:20 AM) I read RSS, too. Since I write on Wordpress, RSS is there. In federated wiki, I guess we should rely on “Recent Changes” more … but that depends on the neighbourhood at the moment. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:20 AM) microformats (indieweb) From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (11:21 AM) There is an RSS plugin. Ward had that installed for a while. Not sure it’s widely known or used. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:21 AM) I’m up to ar/vr solution tech, should be there in 6-9 months From duke to Everyone: (11:21 AM) ya i end up 50 tabs open after these calls From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:22 AM) how to watch it all or something From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (11:22 AM) :-). me too with the tab proliferation From daviding to Everyone: (11:22 AM) Maybe this RSS question is still a mental shift. I hadn’t really thought about RSS on federated wiki. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:22 AM) I fire up lots of tabs at once From duke to Everyone: (11:23 AM) link to russia rss reader? From Nima Johari to Everyone: (11:23 AM) https://bazqux.com/ From dnoyes to Everyone: (11:26 AM) I drag the url of tabs i want to remember to my desktop for future reference From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:26 AM) It finally occurs to me that I find navigating fedwiki too hard to start at the same page and then dig around randomly for new (or topical) content. So haven’t figured out solutions From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:28 AM) My “personal journal” is a wiki, and I am trying to figure out how to move stuff out into the world From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (11:28 AM) Perry, I think this wiki is a quick way to learn how to navigate in federated wiki. http://start.fed.wiki/assets/home/index.html From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:29 AM) hence collaborative wikis (ie, fedwiki) are interesting, but more for 1-2 years in the future From Eric Dobbs to Everyone: (11:29 AM) I’ve gotta run. Once again, really loved the conversation. From Nima Johari to Everyone: (11:29 AM) Thanks Eric :) See you From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:30 AM) Another 1/2 joke: need gopherspace app for fedwiki From daviding to Everyone: (11:30 AM) Having written a 620-page book, I can tell you that writing in Markdown isn’t a solution if footnotes and citations are required. I used LibreOffice as the source (with references in Zotero), and then did the translations to LaTex, and then ePub. From Paul to Everyone: (11:31 AM) have you looked at Substance/Texture? http://substance.io/ From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:31 AM) i use an augmented pandoc via gitit From duke to Everyone: (11:32 AM) conversions and i/o automated in spreadsheet From daviding to Everyone: (11:32 AM) After I gave up on Markdown, I looked at AsciiDoc … but then the footnotes and citations again became a problem. From David Bovill to Everyone: (11:32 AM) Yes - thanks @paul From duke to Everyone: (11:32 AM) i/o + fileformatexchange in one “1” medium From daviding to Everyone: (11:32 AM) Pandoc can fix the Markdown to HTML issue … but internal references across multiple chapters is a challenge. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:32 AM) Well, I have hooks for pictures and diagrams and latex
From David Bovill to Everyone: (11:33 AM) http://tools.openscience.cc/view/welcome-visitors/view/search-for-texture/openscience.cc/texture/openscience.cc/substance From duke to Everyone: (11:33 AM) Bill Tai https://io.cx/SD2AqtyGSvs&t=8675;11.5 And if you can break down whatever flow: electrons, information, societal structure into basic granular elements. From Perry Wagle to Everyone: (11:33 AM) footnotes and citations would be odd From daviding to Everyone: (11:34 AM) I hadn’t seen substance.io and Texture before. Thanks for that, it seems to be 2017. From Nima Johari to Everyone: (11:34 AM) Pandoc is a great tool. I think it can easily handle basic conversions from one file format to another, specially when pieces of texts are broken down into smaller units.
From duke to Everyone: (11:37 AM) wiki is a network of feedback loops From David Bovill to Everyone: (11:38 AM) Overleaf - is the thing I was looking for - and yes also panda - http://tools.openscience.cc/view/welcome-visitors/view/changes-to-this-site/view/pandoc-pages/view/overleaf @nima - do you have a federated wiki where you write? From Nima Johari to Everyone: (11:38 AM) I wouldn’t count on Markdown on any writing that uses heavy references, footnotes and cross-reference either. I’d probably use an intermediate “card-based writing system” that outputs to LaTex. From Robert Sterbal (work) to Everyone: (11:39 AM) Would adding the links as a category to a wiki be helpful? https://sterbalssundrystudies.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Federated_wiki From duke to Everyone: (11:39 AM) http://clive.tries.fed.wiki From David Bovill to Everyone: (11:40 AM) Yes - so I see wiki as a minimal decentralised database of son that we can bring into Overleaf = ShareLatex